Civility, Repect and Lack Thereof, and Lines In The Sand

Alegre's strike against dailyKos got me thinking about the nature of the debate on both sites, about civility and lack thereof, about why well-intentioned writers on both sites sometimes go crazy and vent invective, personal slurs, and curse words on the often undeserving. I started this as a reply in the thread over there, but realized it was turning into a diary, and so it has.

Since this started as a response to Alegre's piece, I suppose a response is still a good thing: I respect Alegre, and then also I don't. I very much respect the personal-experience diaries, her diaries about many worthy causes, even diaries about why she supports Hillary Clinton. I don't respect the "post whatever HillaryClinton.com says, even if it's ridiculous spin" diaries. Someone as smart as she is can see through the spin.

So I won't be joining the strike as she asks, but I do agree with what I think her biggest point is: while civility isn't always justified, there is never a time to take it personal, there is never a time for curse words and invective (with the slight caveat that it's ok, in my opinion, to snarkily call someone the same non-cursing name they just called someone else; if the shoe fits...). Civility is a good thing, even a necessary thing, but there are reasons people go nuts and reasons that crossing some lines over and over demands a firm smackdown -- but not with cursing and invective, and never, ever, with threats and bullying.

This diary is only partly a plea for civility. It might have started out that way, but that's not where it wound up. It's a plea for civility for those who deserve civility, and a plea for relative civility for even those who do not. Everyone has their own lines in the sand; cross those lines, and you forfeit civility from them. There are two problems with that: no one knows who has what lines, and often the person who crossed a line did it by accident, not by design.

I dislike reading hateful remarks about either candidate, too. I really don't like anyone being personally cussed out or bullied. On the other hand, there are times that I feel, to quote, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

At which time I try to make sure there's not a keyboard in typing reach. Some things would've come out much worse, otherwise.

However: for every Hillary smear, I see twice as many Obama smears (and that's being conservative on my estimation). Apologies to Hillary supporters who tell the truth and debate the actual issues, but there are far too many of the other kind. I'm perfectly willing to believe that y'all see it the other way 'round; we all see things through our own filters. But, in case it helps, try to remember that the Obama supporter who's blasting forth probably feels like they're under constant attack.

In my humble opinion, what would most help at this point is an immediate and indefinite ban on discussion of, combined with neither campaign engaging in or mentioning: racism, race-baiting, empty suits, CiC thresholds, red phones, Wright, Whitewater, Rezko, Vince Foster, NAFTAgate, "just words", plagarism, inelectability, sexism, Obama's a Muslim, and media favoritism on either side. One caveat: though not a member of either campaign at this point, but Ferraro needs to cease and desist or we have to discuss race-baiting -- it's too dangerous to the future of the party.

Note that I bent over backwards to include things that the Clinton camp might be upset about, at least in my opinion. Every one of the things on that list, again in my opinion, is not a real issue. Every one of them has pretty much been beaten to death and proven to have no substance.

There's no excuse for name-calling, personal attacks, threats, or anything of the sort. But, as an Obama supporter, sooner or later seeing someone call a magna cum laude Harvard graduate, former U. Chicago consitutional law professor, and United States Senator an empty suit is going to make anyone's head explode. Hearing Rezko for the 30th time in a day will do that too (I'm sure anyone supporting Clinton can remember how it felt hearing Whitewater over and over again, and there was more to Whitewater than Rezko, as little as there was to that). Having to explain for the 37th time that NAFTAgate was a complete scam, that there's enormous evidence that Obama was telling the truth, and some reason to believe that Clinton knew it, gets really tedious. Five minutes of research at virtually any reliable fairly unbiased source of information would settle any of those questions, and it's just offensive that people repeat them as if there was any substance to them. Again, I'm sure any Clinton supporter can sympathize; just remember how it feels when someone brings up Vince Foster.

Hearing vague and unsubstantiated allegations of "Obama played the race card" on the strength of anecdotes and argument from assertion, especially when Geraldine Ferraro is out race-baiting from any right-wing talk show that'll have her, is just plain infuriating. And the latest one, that somehow Obama has "put down" older people and particular older women, or that he "doesn't respect" core Democrats, or anything of the sort, would be laughable if it didn't seem like some people actually believe this nonsense... at which point it makes one sigh and growl at once.

I'm sure for the Clinton side there are similar arguments that they're tired of hearing. Off the top of my head, I can only think of a few particularly illegitimate ones (since I don't think many Obamaphiles are out screaming about Whitewater or Vince Foster). But, for instance, the 3AM-ad-was-racist nonsense. That's an easy one; it wasn't. End of subject. Obama supporters shouldn't run with that one. Another: Hillary Clinton is a racist. Balderdash. Neither's Bill. Don't say it. Now, Geraldine Ferraro is a shameless race-baiter, but she is no longer part of the Clinton campaign; don't tar them with her brush. It'd be as bad as tarring the Obama campaign with the Wright brush (and don't do that either, Clinton supporters).  And then there's the "Laura Bush, Barbara Bush, and Nancy Reagan are as qualified as Hillary Clinton". That line is funny the first time and absolutely insulting to Senator Clinton the second and subsequent times; while I think it's meant as humor, it deserves the same fate as anything on my list, and is just as valid a point of attack. There are certainly others of this sort, I'm sure, and if I were a Clinton supporter they'd anger me (heck, as an Obama supporter they pretty much do, too).

But from my perspective, it's 5 to 1 or worse. I hear oh so much more empty suit! Rezko! NAFTAgate! Race Card! nonsense, again and again, and I really don't hear Obama supporters shouting Whitewater! Vince Foster! Laura Bush is as qualified! 3AM ad is racist! Hillary/Bill are racists! nearly as much. The latter two got quick little bursts, and then died out, done in as much by Obamaphiles as Clinton supporters.

But I hear the mindless anti-Obama things over and over and over and over. And after while, it drives the best of us into fire-breathing dragons. That doesn't make any excuse for people who vent that anger in the form of cursing and invective, particular since it'll probably get vented at the wrong person. The poor poster that gets flamed when we go ballistic probably just believed something they heard; after all, when everyone around you says "he's an empty suit", it's easier to believe it than to spend the 5 minutes needed to find out it's utterly untrue. And once they get flamed, now they really don't want to spend the 5 minutes; now they're just pissed off at "those nasty, vicious Obama supporters". And the truth is, there are a few. But most of "those nasty, vicious Obama supporters" are just people who got pissed off by hearing nonsense one too many times and reacted inappropriately. And while I fully blame the offender, I do also blame anyone who repeats these things over and over, for fanning the flames and building the pressure.

Mind you, I'm giving Clinton supporters exactly the same benefit of the doubt. I understand why some of them go stark raving bonkers when someone claims the 3AM ad was racist. Or when someone drags Whitewater or Vince Foster into this. Or when someone claims Hillary Clinton has no experience (mind you, I reserve the right to discuss just how much, or the relative importance of it, but she does; if nothing else, she's been a sitting US senator for 6 years, and that's hardly chopped liver). Those things aren't true, any more than the tripe about Obama is true.

There's plenty of room for discussion. Question the depth and/or applicability of Obama's experience if you want; expect to have Hillary's questioned in return. Discuss policies and programs. Talk about who'll do a better job getting us out if Iraq; except to have Hillary's vote on the AUMF scrutinized in return. Talk about what we want and need in a President, whether it be fighter or consensus-builder or maybe both, and who better meets the goal. Brag on your candidate all you want (and expect it questioned if you puff things up), we'll brag on ours. Talk about your candidate's legislative record (and don't ignore that of ours, which is pretty darn substantial) and we'll talk about ours (and not ignore that of yours and compare it to Laura Bush's).

For me, and I hope other Obama supporters will join me, I'll try and always remember not to jump too hard down the throat of the 10th guy I see shouting empty suit! Rezko! Wright! unelectable! media favoritism! race card! and other nonsense; they most likely just haven't looked into things. I won't even jump down the throat of anyone shouting race card! who isn't addressing Ferraro first; maybe they missed the enormous flap about Ferraro.

And I hope Clinton supports will do the same for the poor Obama supporters who say the 3AM ad was racist, or who say no experience! racist! Some of them will be obnoxious, goodness knows; many of them will just move on. Try to remember also that they're probably just venting because someone else entirely just repeated nonsense about Obama for the 27th time.

On the other hand, if I see someone repeating nonsense like, once more for reference, "empty suit! Rezko! Wright! unelectable! media favoritism! race card!" about Obama over and over, when I know they know better and are trying to perpetuate any of those arguments, which deserve all the same credence as "same experience as Laura Bush has", because they hope someone will be ignorant enough to believe them without thought, then I reserve the right to jump down their throat (without threats and bullying). Because that's something they're personally doing that they should personally know is wrong. And I'll jump down the throat of anyone who ought to know better who leaps in to defend any of that tripe, for the same reason.

My choice of lines on the Obama side will, I think/suspect/hope/am egotistical enough to believe will be similar to those of a lot of other Obama supporters. As an Obama supporter I'm not sure I know where the consensus lines are for the Clinton side. But I do feel very strongly about my lines. Cross them by accident and I just owe you a polite response about why you're wrong and a pointer to the facts. Cross them again and again and you deserve a smackdown.

I understand that some people are going to think my lines are in the wrong place. Sorry. I've read,listened, and thought extensively on the issues that my lines concern, and I honestly don't think there's any room for debate on them, and I really don't much respect the analytical ability of anyone who does. If you've got cold, hard, facts that say otherwise, by all means bring them up; I'm convinced, but I'm not so set in stone I won't listen. But if you want to convince me otherwise, innuendo and assertion won't do; similarly to convincing you that Hillary did in Vince Foster (and she did not, this is just to make the point), about the only thing that'll sway my opinion is actual fingerprints on an actual weapon, or a flat-out confession.

Think about it this way: there are still lots of people out there who think Hillary Clinton did vile things to Vince Foster, and are convinced that there's room for debate on the issue. I'm as firm in saying y'all are right about them being wrong as I'm firm about the lines I have. I give people who harp on the things that are past my lines just as much respect as you'd give the Vince Foster conspiracy theorists and less than I give the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, which ain't much. Yeah, they can make an argument; yeah, if you torture the logic enough, use circular reasoning, and invent and misconstrue facts, you can argue that black is white and day is night; but really, black is black and white is white, day is day and night is night, sorry.

I hope and expect y'all will do the same for Obama supporters, on both sides. Be gentle with the newcomers who say something stupid about Hillary Clinton, and slam the repeat offenders. As much as you can, police your own side too (I've slammed a few Obama supporters on things like the 3AM ad, Laura Bush, the Clinton's supposed racism, and such). Suggest some lines of your own; maybe everyone can agree on a few (yes, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...).

Again being a dreamer: we're all trying to get a Democrat in the White House. Every one of us wants essentially the same things for the country. We differ on a few specifics and a few goals, and we differ on who we think the best choice for President is. Wouldn't it be nice if we could actually spend most of our time debating the goals and the specifics, and the positive qualities of our candidates, rather than spending all this energy trying to tear down two United States Senators, proud Democrats, running as progressives and each with millions of votes in their favor and a large corps of dedicated followers? And wouldn't it be nice if we could do that without the debate being hijacked over the same worn-out, tired, retread arguments?

I can dream. Dream with me. Please.



Display:


Re: Civility, Repect and Lack Thereof, and Lines I (2.00 / 0)

Rec'd and read every word. You deserve a better quality venue.


by upstate girl on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:47:23 PM EST

Well... (none / 0)

Yeah, well, that's very nice and civil and big and all of you.

Problem is, a lot of those questions, for instance Rezko, go to judgment and ethics; not uninteresting qualities in a POTUS (point in case: GWB). And when a candidate presents his or her judgment as superior to the competition; then this becomes part of the political discourse, like it or not.

If we are to organize politically, we must be able to debate the political issues.

If the level of the debate is too low, or the contact is too physical, well, there is no mandatory participation in any comment section or thread. We're allowed to cherry pick. So I recommend you start with that.

Peace.


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:54:40 PM EST

Re: Well... (none / 0)

Rezko is a dead horse. Sorry. It's been beaten into a pulp in the Chicago Tribune and elsewhere. There's nothing there. The worst we've proven amounts to 1) Obama doing his job in the right way, the way one would expect him to, and 2) making a questionable, but not unethical, not illegal, and not immoral real estate deal with no ill intent, which he's taken full responsibility for and apologized for.

The standard for ethics in government is not sainthood. You're allowed to make a mistake, a mistake in which there was no foul intent, no corruption, no illegality (and no one has alleged any of those things about the one questionable matter, which amounts to an unnecessary real estate deal).

I'll accept Rezko as a valid argument only if you feel that the standard is that any potential ethical violation, even if there was no foul intent, no corruption, no illegality, invalidates a candidate, at which point all three primary contenders for President need to drop out now.

Otherwise, give it up. It's adding nothing to the debate, and it's reminding a lot of people about a lot of questionable deals involving other candidates. Some of those you may like (when they involve McCain) and some of those I'm sure you don't (given who they involve).


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (none / 0)

Let me first respectfully say that I don't agree neither with your statements regarding the implications of RezkoGate nor with your statements on the nature of Obama's connections with Rezko.

Let me then, equally respectfully, ask if you really want a debate on Rezko here and now, given the overall theme of your diary?

I'm game if you are...


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (none / 0)

I don't. RezkoGate is a dead horse. I'm not interested in beating it anymore.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:35:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (2.00 / 1)

Then, purely out of respect and good will, I shall refrain from any snark at your unwillingness to discuss it.

Peace & Good Night.


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (2.00 / 2)

Okay, grey wolf, tell us, for a fact, what Rezko wanted in return for his purchasing of the land for Obama. If you cannot give me a real answer to that, with a link to a major news source validating the claim, then it hasn't been answered. And i don't want to hear about increasing land value when it was bought at the top of the market. that's a claim for the same kind of suckers that bought houses in the past four years.

A mob affiliate, under investigation for corruption, offered to do a personal favor for a US senator to the tune of $675k and no one knows what he wanted in return.

If Rezko is convicted, Fitzgerald is going to seek to flip him in exchange for a reduction in his prison sentence. What guarantees do you have that he won't finger Obama on some aspect of that land purchase and that Rezko's charge couldn't be documented?

Go ahead - tell us what the guarantee is that Rezko doesn't have something TRUTHFUL to use against Obama and how you know this to be true.

What I see is a greedy, egocentric, not-nearly-as-he-thinks-he-is guy in debt to the mob. If you have any evidence that there isn't a deal between Obama and Rezko, put it on the table right now.

Explain to us why any thinking Democrat who doesn't want a repeat of the Starr investigation should even for a second be confident that nothing will come of the Obama/Rezko deal - and whatever the answer better involve subpoenas or it's meaningless.


by Little Otter on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (none / 0)

There's no guarantee. Provide a smoking gun with fingerprints on it and I'll change my mind. Otherwise go away.

RezkoGate is not even a tiny little blip compared to, say, Mark Rich, which is a story I'd rather not go with either, as it doesn't help anyone get elected. But a deal to pardon a felon, who got rich and destroyed lives, cost billions, at which Hillary was personally present? With Scooter Libby the "reliable Republican attorney" used as the justification for this being a reasonable pardon?

Glass houses and stones. The Tribune has been after the Rezko deal for almost two years and found absolutely nothing. There is no there there. Come back when you've got a smoking gun with fingerprints, or expect a lot of vague innuendo-filled charges back the other way, about bought votes in NY, about bought pardons, illegal fundraisers and all the rest of it.

We can do far better than this.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (2.00 / 1)

Ahh, Marc Rich who paid a $200 million fine and who had to agree to waive the use of the pardon if he was indicted on civil charges? That Marc Rich? The one whose pardon has been investigated by federal prosecutor Mary Jo White and James Comey (the Republican who appointed Fitzgerald to investigate Libby) - neither of whom can find anything to indict on? That's what you're worried about? Surely, you jest.

That ones been through a federal investigation - so you can whine all you want about it, but i'd still rather deal with than some joker in debt to the mob.

now, go ahead, tell us what you have that's the equivalent to the federal investigation of Rich's pardon (by the way, he was indicted on civil, not criminal charges) that makes you  confident that it won't be much, much, much worse - other than the fact that you, for some unknown reason, simply like Obama better.

You don't get it - Obama made a horrendous mistake in judgement and he will not reveal the details of the arrangement. Doesn't that strike you as a very bad position for a candidate for the presidency to take? The Tribune doesn't have anything because Obama will not answer questions and won't provide paperwork. Why is that?

Now, before you change the subject again, tell us two things:

  1. What did Rezko want in return, and,
  2. Why are you confident he can't be flipped and testify with substance against Obama?

The fact that you won't acknowledge how dangerous the Rezko situation is for Democrats is the problem that thinking people have with the Obama campaign.

Factor in his earmarks to his wife's hospital and the immediate $200k a year payraise she received, his 20 year attendence at the church of a virulently racist clown and I see big problems coming down the pike, Add in the fact that the majority of Clinton supporters are now saying they won't vote for him in the general and thinking people see the Democrats seizing loss from the jaws of victory. And his supporters refuse to acknowledge what obvious to anyone who can think.

The guy is bad news.


by Little Otter on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well... (none / 0)

What's the charge?

Has Obama done something quid pro quo that I'm not aware of?

So much has been made over this house deal. Okay. Fine. Now where's the 'so what'?

Please. If someone has something--something tangible--on this whole Rezko thing, I'd love to hear it.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh please.... (2.00 / 2)

What you're dreaming is that you and your candidate don't get called on the shit he's foisted on our culture. No, Obama doesn't get to pollute the discourse as severely as he has, and then make Clinton an equal opportunity offender - because she isn't and neither is Bill. And nothing Ferraro said was racist. You've been had.

When Obama admits that they knew damn good and well that the 1984 ad was coming out, when Obama admits that the Clintons havent' uttered a single racist phrase, and that his campaign has played the race card relentlessly, when Jesse Jackson Jr. apologizes for threatening super delegates with primary challenges if they don't support Obama, when obama agrees that he wasn't on the Michigan ballot because he didn't want to risk a public loss to clinton and then agrees to seat the delegates as it is, when Michelle apologizes to Clinton for her skanky, trashy comments about how Clinton can't run her house, and when Obama apologizes to Hillary for the "period" comment, and the "tea with ambassadors" comment and fesses up to the misogyny, then we can talk about a break in civility.

You're candidate has done the Democratic party, black/white relations and this entire nation a huge disservice - the likes of which I've never seen from a Democrat.

You don't want to hear about Rezko? Then don't support candidates who do stuff that stupid. You're tired of hearing about NAFTA - then tell your candidate to get his story straight first time. There were five different versions that I know of - the first of which being that no one from the campaign had talked to the Canadians.  I guess that shot down - why you believe anything else that joker said is beyond me.

Look - your candidate is finally getting his ass busted big time, and now you want the heat turned down because you can the toilet water circling around his campaign and you don't want to hear anymore about all the reasons he is an offensive, non-progressive, candidate.

And no, comparing Hillary to Laura Bush is not the same as saying Obama hasn't done anything. Bush hasn't done anything and Clinton's dominant position in the Clinton WH has been documented by every book, negative and positive, written on the subject. Obama, OTOH, has very little resume compared to Clinton and that is a fact of history. Working part time in the Illinois state senate is a stepping stone but is far from executive or high office experience. You want to talk about Vince Foster - go fuck yourself! Three different Republican prosecutors have investigated his death and come to the conclusion that the suicide is real. Which Republican prosecutor with subpoena power has looked into Obama's Rezko deal and officially given him a clean bill of health? Because without that, reality is throwing quite a monkey wrench into your self-serving little diatribe here.

Obama  and  his supporters have relentlessly trashed a fine, upstanding Democrat who, unlike him, has actually spent her entire adult life in service to this nation. A fine upstanding Democrat who, unlike him, turned her back on the huge Wall Street/ corporate offers she was getting after law school and her time on the Watergate panel and went to work as a public attorney and wound up on the Legal Services Corporation - appointed by Jimmy Carter. Obama, for the record, graduated from Harvard and went right to work for a law firm. He did nothing for other people. She doesn't have to be your first choice, but she's done nothing to deserve the way your candidate and your fellow Obamafiles have treated her. You didn't treat John Edwards like that and the only reason you treated Clinton that way was her gender - and you know it as well as I do.

There is no equivalency between the two - none. Nor is there any equivalency in the amount of dirt that they and their supporters have thrown. No one has to shut down their comments because of abuse Clinton supporters like they have to do with Obama supporteers - you may recall Digby being repeated called a cunt for posting critical diaries on Obama - that's what Obama supporters are like. No site has arbitrarily banned Obama supporters simply for being Obama supporters as has happened to Clinton supporters at Kos and HuffPo. Clinton isn't demanding that entire states that we need to win in November be disenfranchised even though a revote may well cost her votes in Michigan. Obama just wants to be given delegates that he has not earned and avoid a revote.

You don't like it? Tough. Your candidate and his supporters are almost entirely responsible for the ugly primary we've been through. Disgraceful.


by Little Otter on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:24:56 AM EST

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

After high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles, where he studied at Occidental College for two years.[23] He then transferred to Columbia University in New York City, where he majored in political science with a specialization in international relations.[24] Obama received his Bachelor of Arts in 1983, then worked at Business International Corporation and New York Public Interest Research Group before moving to Chicago to take a job as a community organizer.[25] As Director of the Developing Communities Project, he worked with low-income residents in Chicago's Roseland community and the Altgeld Gardens public housing development.[26] He entered Harvard Law School in 1988.[27] In 1990, The New York Times reported his election as the Harvard Law Review's "first black president in its 104-year history".[28] He completed his J.D. degree magna cum laude in 1991.[29] On returning to Chicago, Obama directed a voter registration drive.[29] As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases.[30] He was a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1993 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004.[31


by mady on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

Opinions are fine, but facts are facts.


by mady on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

Whoops sorry, attribution, from Wikipedia and verifiable elsewhere.


by mady on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:36:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

I'm not interested in busting people on well-established facts. I know Obama's history at least as well as you do.


by Little Otter on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (2.00 / 1)

You're aware taht we're talking about a candidate for the Democratic nomination for the president, and as such, that's a prettty lackluster resume right? In fact, why don't you point out the last Democratic candidate to make to the final tier of competition where his supporters are reduced to including college distinctions because there really isn't much else to say about them.

Go ahead - name one with as light as resume as obama.


by Little Otter on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

Bill Clinton. I'll take United States Senator over Governor of Arkansas any day, no matter how long either has held their office.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:41:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

I need to stress this. Bill Clinton's resume was far lighter than his challengers in 1992. Not even a contest. No foreign policy experience, not all that much government experience, and frankly, Arkansas is not and was not at the time a model state. It was an exceedingly thin resume.

Is it your belief that one of Bill's opponents should have won the election? Or would have done a better job?


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:46:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (2.00 / 2)

Great - let's here about some of these cases he allegedly handled while at Miner, Barnhill  and Galland. I think he lectured twice a year a semester on Constitutional Law - not impressive.
So you have three years of his adult life when he may have been doing something for other people. At what time frame was he helping Rezko put the money together for the slums that he owned? I notice you left that out.
by Little Otter on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:40:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

That would be... never. You're confusing your delusions about the Rezko case with the fact.

Obama taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago from 1993 to 2004. The University of Chicago is not exactly a weak school, nor do they allow empty suits to lecture there.

At what time frame do you claim that Obama did anything other than work that directly served the public, in a progressive sense?

And under what rules do you consider Hillary Clinton's professional career, when she was not doing legal work in progressive areas, but rather corporate law, service to the country?


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

she's done nothing to deserve the way your candidate and your fellow Obamafiles have treated her. You didn't treat John Edwards like that and the only reason you treated Clinton that way was her gender - and you know it as well as I do.

You do realize that you just called all Obama supporters sexists, right.

If that's not what you meant, I like to hear that from you. If it is what you meant, I think you might need to rethink your views on how one-sided the mud-slinging is this election...

Personally, I don't like being called a sexist, and I think that's totally out of line.


"Don't let it end this way; tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa
by shef on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:04:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (2.00 / 1)

I don't feel like wallowing in the mud or writing the length of reply it would take to deal with all of this nonsense. And yes, you've done this plenty of times and you should know better.

Quick replies:

1) The ad in question was repugnant fear-mongering. As Bill Clinton himself said back in 1992, when you see an ad like that you know the other guy is the one to vote for.

2) Obama has never said that his campaign has played the race card, primarily because it hasn't.

3) Of course the SDs are going to face primary challenges. It's obvious to anyone. If the SDs are that dull that they can't see that, honestly, why would you let them have a vote?

4) Seating the Michigan delegation... oh my. You lose me there. Seat a blatantly disenfranchising election? Where Obama did what all the major candidates pledged to do? The right thing? Tell me you didn't just say it's right to disenfranchise 45% of Michigan because they supported the candidate who did what he pledged to do. Please.

5) No interest in Michelle vs. Hillary. If name-calling is the best you can do, pack it in. We have real issues at stake.

6) The period comment is insane. Do you not know what that word means, in any context but female biology? Obama is not that illiterate and neither is Hillary.

7) Tea parties is marginally out of line. Again, it's pretty mundane namecalling. Obama's been called an empty suit, completely erroneously, a time or 10. Give an excuse, fine, but then admit that there's been substantial puffery of Hillary's record as First Lady. Time ran a nice article about it. Some of it's valid; I concede that, the Obama campaign concedes that. But there's been a lot of shameless puffery.

8) The person who's done a huge disservice to the race, party, election, and nation is Geraldine Ferraro. Assuming Obama's done every single last bit of race-card playing you seem to think he has, without a shred of evidence, it wouldn't hold a candle to what she's doing, and everyone without their head in the sand knows it. She's taking her race-baiting on right-wing talk radio, for goodness sake. The obvious, blatant, and unquestionable use of race gets addressed before things only proven by assertion. Sorry.

9) The Rezko issue has been beaten into a pulp by the Chicago Tribune among others. There is absolutely no there there. The only thing that's been established is that 1) Obama actually did his job as a state senator, and 2) he made a dumb real estate deal that he has apologized for. The record is clear that there's nothing beyond that; no bribes, no favors, no influence offered or provided, no nothing. At the time of the house deal and since then there is ample evidence that Obama has done absolutely nothing to favor Rezko, not merely a lack of investigation.

10) Everyone from the Canadian government down has confirmed Obama's version of the NAFTA story. Sorry for you. Obama's original statement were that there were no meetings between the people who were alleged to have had meetings. There were not. Then it shifted to other people. Those were not denied, but the content was denied. As it turns out, the content was as Obama described it. The meetings were originally described as having been requested by Obama's campaign. They were not, again as answered by Obama. Every single thing alleged about NAFTAgate was wrong... and I believe you've been around this block too many times to not know that. You're playing dumb in hopes that someone else will believe this piffle.

11) You're right, there's positive and negative documentation. Some people say she had a big role; others, very little. There's no consensus to the reporting. The only program that she unquestionably had lead responsibility for was a disaster of epic proportions. Yes, she has experience from it. No, it's not clear that it's all that much. Sorry.

12) Obama's record as a United States senator is equal to at the very least, and likely superior, to Clinton's in terms of bills authored, bills passed, influence on legislation, and so forth. There are several major bills commonly known as Obama-<X>. There are no major bills commonly known as Clinton-<X>. He's not running on State Senate experience. And exactly what was Bill Clinton's high office experience compared to that of George H.W. Bush? Or compared to Obama's, for that matter?

13) I specifically said that Vince Foster was a non-issue and there was absolutely no evidence of anything, that it was a completely bogus argument. It is. The only reason I mentioned it is as an example of the sort of issue that everyone knows is specious, but keeps getting trotted out anyway -- just like most of the arguments you're trotting out about Obama. You know they're dead issues, I know they're dead issues, and everyone but the clueless know they're dead issues.

14) Obama has spent his entire adult life in service to the nation, as a community organizer, constitutional law professor, state senator, and United States Senator. Unlike Hillary Clinton, his legal work in private practice was in the area of voting rights, community organization, and discrimination, not on behalf of corporations and land developers. He has not done legal work for corporations. He has not sat on the board of Wal-Mart. Remind me again how the work that Clinton did at Rose Law and Wal-Mart was service to the nation? Note: I am not stating nor implying that there is anything wrong with those positions, nor that she did anything wrong in them. But one of the candidates has spent their entire adult life in service to the nation, and it is not Hillary Clinton.

15) You do not know me. Do not presume to think for one minute that I'm attacking Hillary Clinton because of her gender. That you even bring it up says far more about you than it does me. Everyone who opposes her must be sexist, yes? There is absolutely no room for disagreement; if you disagree, you're sexist. And Obama introduced sexism into the race? Are you that blind? Perhaps this is why you think Obama played the race card too?

This one gets a longer response. I am not attacking Hillary Clinton, outside of some comments about puffery in her record. She is a fine person, a fine Senator, a fine Democrat. She would make a very good President of the United States. She should have run in 2004; we'd be in the midst of the Clinton re-election campaign right now.

But she's running against a candidate who is superior to her this time. It's not because she's a woman, or anything else. It's not about sexism. If she were a man and Obama a woman, Obama would still be a superior candidate and make a superior President. I am not trying to tear her down so Obama looks good. Why is it that you feel that the only way to make Hillary Clinton look good is to tear Obama down? I give her full respect. I suggest you do the same. It's unbecoming to her that her supporters seem to think that she's so slight as a candidate that their only option is to talk down the opposition. Be proud of your candidate and stop slandering the opponent with charges you know to be false and distorted.

16) Being called that name is utterly unacceptable. The Obama supporters who did that are vile. I do not stand for them. That does not make the endless repetition of false statements and slanders about Obama from Clinton supporters one bit more justifiable. Two wrongs do not make a right.

17) There have been a number of Obama supporters who have reported being banned from myDD solely for being Obama supporters. As best as I am able to ascertain, nothing they said was framed in unacceptable language.

18) Clinton has declared that entire states do not matter. My state is one of them. Pardon me if I take as much offense at what she's said about my state as you take about Michigan. It looks like Michigan is going to revote. Good. I've called for that numerous times.

Seating the Michigan delegation in its current form would disenfranchise about 9 times as many Michiganders (proper term, according to my Michigander father) as would a 50/50 split. I hate the idea of a 50/50 split. But it's still far more fair than seating the delegation as it stands.

19) I do not accept in any way that Obama is responsible for the ugliness of the campaign. Virtually every ugly charge that has been made: plagarism, cults, saviors, race cards, NAFTAgate, Rezko, sexism, ageism, etc, has come from the Clinton camp. I fail to see how that makes any of it Obama's responsibility. You know full well that Obama could hit back with a laundry list of allegations against Hillary Clinton that would make Rezko look like the smallest potatoes ever. They're all out there. I'm not alleging that any of them are true; they may all be as insubstantial as Rezko. But we both know what they are.

He hasn't done it.

Tell me again how it's all coming from Obama.

Tell me how Obama got Geraldine Ferraro to go on right-wing talk radio and vilely race-bait (note: not Hillary Clinton's fault, but clearly not Obama's). Tell me how he got Bill Clinton to go on Limbaugh's show (not with Limbaugh, mercifully) and pander for votes. Tell me how he got Hillary Clinton to praise John McCain (and lest you think that merely my opinion, Speaker Pelosi shares it. I suppose she's one of those sexist Obamabots?).

Tell me how NAFTAgate, a non-issue on which Obama told the truth and did nothing wrong, became a key issue in Ohio, when there were real issues that actually mattered? Who injected NAFTAgate into the discussion?

Tell me again how the candidate who has spent virtually all of the time since Super Tuesday either responding to attacks outside the scope of the issues, attacks made by the Clinton campaign, that have no substance and are invariably found to be bogus, or directly attacking John McCain, the enemy of the Democratic party, is responsible, instead of the candidate who has spent more time praising McCain than attacking him, has virtually ceased speaking about the issues, and is consumed with personal attacks, is the one responsible.

Tell me why the candidate who is running with broad coalition of supporters, who regularly calls for everyone to work together, regardless of race and gender and age and all that stuff, is the one responsible for divisiveness, instead of the candidate whose campaign endlessly parrots demographic blocks, their appeal to certain segments of the voting population.

Tell me why we shouldn't instead blame the campaign of which a chief strategist built his entire philosophy of campaigns around the notions of microtrends, of slicing people up into little groups, pitting them against each other, and adding them up into 50%+1. That's what he says he wants to do. That's the stated goal. Why should we believe that the divisiveness comes from the campaign stressing unity, instead of from the one that comes out and tells you, to your face, that they want divisiveness?

There are serious and real issues in this election. I know you know that. But you respond with a piece that repeats falsehood after falsehood and tortured logic after tortured logic, when you absolutely know better.

I have respect for Hillary Clinton. In another year she would have made a great President. I hoped she'd run in 2004 at the time. She would've had a coronation in the primaries and a cakewalk against Bush. I am not in any way opposed to her. She is a good and honorable person, as far as I know.

However, the campaign she has around her does not have my respect. It is not a good and honorable campaign. A good and honorable campaign would not have sent their candidate out to praise the opposite candidate ahead of their own party's frontrunner. A good and honorable campaign would not have surrogates who make it clear that they're seeking the white racist vote to win elections. A good and honorable campaign would not trash the party's frontrunner when they know the opposition would be horrible for the nation.

I have respect for most Hillary Clinton supporters. They believe in her. I respect that. She's a good and honorable person and servant to this country. She deserves respect.

I have absolutely no respect for the win-at-all-costs supporters who repeat falsehood and distortion over and over, that they either know or should know to be false. I have no respect for anyone who would defend the absolutely abhorrent words of Geraldine Ferraro, or minimize the enormous damage tolerance of such things will bring to every non-white-male candidate for years to come. I have no respect for people who repeatedly dodge any discussion for the issues so they can trot out a whole line of personal attacks. I have no respect for anyone who thinks the only way their candidate looks better than someone else's is to make theirs look bad.

And I have absolutely, positively, and utterly no respect for someone who calls me a sexist.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:40:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (2.00 / 1)

My first line was stupid. Obviously I did in fact give that a longer reply than I intended.

Rest assured I'm not writing it for you, Little Otter. I'm not going to change your mind (I'd love it if I did, but I don't see it happening).

I'm writing it for anyone else who might be watching and who might think there was any substance to your reply.

There was precious little of that to be found, as it turns out.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:48:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please.... (none / 0)

Texas Grey Wolf - a huge thank you.  You articulate everything I would wish to say on this issue, and you have the patience to do it over and over again for posters like Little Otter that will never meet you half way.  I commend your even handedness under duress.


by interestedbystander on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bottom Line... (none / 0)

You started with nice enough intentions, but failed to live up to your own requests. Besides, I believe virtually everything you asked me not to believe about Oprahma. 2.6 from the German judges.


by Soitgoes on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:05:08 AM EST

Re: Bottom Line... (none / 0)

Then you should go do some research. Everything I discount has thorough proof behind it. Don't believe what you're being fed.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bottom Line... (none / 0)

Oh, wait. Duh. It was snark. Sorry, it's really late. German judges should have clued me in.

Time for bed.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:18:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No race baiting? (2.00 / 2)

The race card was very clearly played by the Obama campaign completely out of the blue the morning after New Hampshire, remember?
"...there were tears that melted the Granite State. And those are tears that Mrs. Clinton cried on that day, clearly moved voters. She somehow connected with those voters.
But those tears also have to be analyzed. They have to be looked at very, very carefully in light of Katrina, in light of other things that Mrs. Clinton did not cry for, particularly as we head to South Carolina where 45% of African-Americans who participate in the Democratic contest, and they see real hope in Barack Obama."

Tell me that isn't race baiting from out of nowhere the morning after an upset loss. That's from an Obama campaign  co-chair.

You want to ban discussions you deem harmful? Nice. Words matter too much?

Give us a break.


by Zorkon on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:20:26 AM EST

Re: Civility, Repect and Lack Thereof, and Lines I (2.00 / 1)

I'm not "pushing" that line. It was said on international tv by Jesse Jackson Jr. I didn't make him say it
Tell me how that isn't race baiting. I'm waiting.
Please defend Jesse Jackson's Jr.'s comments if they aren't a calculated attempt to play the race card heading into a state with a large AA voting populace.
Enlighten us.
by Zorkon on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:37:20 AM EST

Re: Civility, Repect and Lack Thereof, (2.00 / 1)

In my humble opinion, what would most help at this point is an immediate and indefinite ban on discussion of, combined with neither campaign engaging in or mentioning: racism, race-baiting, empty suits, CiC thresholds, red phones, Wright, Whitewater, Rezko, Vince Foster, NAFTAgate, "just words", plagarism, inelectability, sexism, Obama's a Muslim, and media favoritism on either side. One caveat: though not a member of either campaign at this point, but Ferraro needs to cease and desist or we have to discuss race-baiting -- it's too dangerous to the future of the party.

Best. Idea. I've. Heard. In. MONTHS.

Sadly, I doubt it will happen. People will continue to post negative diaries, and it's just instinctive to respond and try to offer some sort of defense. Pity.

Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:42:55 AM EST


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