Alegre's strike against dailyKos got me thinking about the nature of the debate on both sites, about civility and lack thereof, about why well-intentioned writers on both sites sometimes go crazy and vent invective, personal slurs, and curse words on the often undeserving. I started this as a reply in the thread over there, but realized it was turning into a diary, and so it has.
Since this started as a response to Alegre's piece, I suppose a response is still a good thing: I respect Alegre, and then also I don't. I very much respect the personal-experience diaries, her diaries about many worthy causes, even diaries about why she supports Hillary Clinton. I don't respect the "post whatever HillaryClinton.com says, even if it's ridiculous spin" diaries. Someone as smart as she is can see through the spin.
So I won't be joining the strike as she asks, but I do agree with what I think her biggest point is: while civility isn't always justified, there is never a time to take it personal, there is never a time for curse words and invective (with the slight caveat that it's ok, in my opinion, to snarkily call someone the same non-cursing name they just called someone else; if the shoe fits...). Civility is a good thing, even a necessary thing, but there are reasons people go nuts and reasons that crossing some lines over and over demands a firm smackdown -- but not with cursing and invective, and never, ever, with threats and bullying.
This diary is only partly a plea for civility. It might have started out that way, but that's not where it wound up. It's a plea for civility for those who deserve civility, and a plea for relative civility for even those who do not. Everyone has their own lines in the sand; cross those lines, and you forfeit civility from them. There are two problems with that: no one knows who has what lines, and often the person who crossed a line did it by accident, not by design.
I dislike reading hateful remarks about either candidate, too. I really don't like anyone being personally cussed out or bullied. On the other hand, there are times that I feel, to quote, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
At which time I try to make sure there's not a keyboard in typing reach. Some things would've come out much worse, otherwise.
However: for every Hillary smear, I see twice as many Obama smears (and that's being conservative on my estimation). Apologies to Hillary supporters who tell the truth and debate the actual issues, but there are far too many of the other kind. I'm perfectly willing to believe that y'all see it the other way 'round; we all see things through our own filters. But, in case it helps, try to remember that the Obama supporter who's blasting forth probably feels like they're under constant attack.
In my humble opinion, what would most help at this point is an immediate and indefinite ban on discussion of, combined with neither campaign engaging in or mentioning: racism, race-baiting, empty suits, CiC thresholds, red phones, Wright, Whitewater, Rezko, Vince Foster, NAFTAgate, "just words", plagarism, inelectability, sexism, Obama's a Muslim, and media favoritism on either side. One caveat: though not a member of either campaign at this point, but Ferraro needs to cease and desist or we have to discuss race-baiting -- it's too dangerous to the future of the party.
Note that I bent over backwards to include things that the Clinton camp might be upset about, at least in my opinion. Every one of the things on that list, again in my opinion, is not a real issue. Every one of them has pretty much been beaten to death and proven to have no substance.
There's no excuse for name-calling, personal attacks, threats, or anything of the sort. But, as an Obama supporter, sooner or later seeing someone call a magna cum laude Harvard graduate, former U. Chicago consitutional law professor, and United States Senator an empty suit is going to make anyone's head explode. Hearing Rezko for the 30th time in a day will do that too (I'm sure anyone supporting Clinton can remember how it felt hearing Whitewater over and over again, and there was more to Whitewater than Rezko, as little as there was to that). Having to explain for the 37th time that NAFTAgate was a complete scam, that there's enormous evidence that Obama was telling the truth, and some reason to believe that Clinton knew it, gets really tedious. Five minutes of research at virtually any reliable fairly unbiased source of information would settle any of those questions, and it's just offensive that people repeat them as if there was any substance to them. Again, I'm sure any Clinton supporter can sympathize; just remember how it feels when someone brings up Vince Foster.
Hearing vague and unsubstantiated allegations of "Obama played the race card" on the strength of anecdotes and argument from assertion, especially when Geraldine Ferraro is out race-baiting from any right-wing talk show that'll have her, is just plain infuriating. And the latest one, that somehow Obama has "put down" older people and particular older women, or that he "doesn't respect" core Democrats, or anything of the sort, would be laughable if it didn't seem like some people actually believe this nonsense... at which point it makes one sigh and growl at once.
I'm sure for the Clinton side there are similar arguments that they're tired of hearing. Off the top of my head, I can only think of a few particularly illegitimate ones (since I don't think many Obamaphiles are out screaming about Whitewater or Vince Foster). But, for instance, the 3AM-ad-was-racist nonsense. That's an easy one; it wasn't. End of subject. Obama supporters shouldn't run with that one. Another: Hillary Clinton is a racist. Balderdash. Neither's Bill. Don't say it. Now, Geraldine Ferraro is a shameless race-baiter, but she is no longer part of the Clinton campaign; don't tar them with her brush. It'd be as bad as tarring the Obama campaign with the Wright brush (and don't do that either, Clinton supporters). And then there's the "Laura Bush, Barbara Bush, and Nancy Reagan are as qualified as Hillary Clinton". That line is funny the first time and absolutely insulting to Senator Clinton the second and subsequent times; while I think it's meant as humor, it deserves the same fate as anything on my list, and is just as valid a point of attack. There are certainly others of this sort, I'm sure, and if I were a Clinton supporter they'd anger me (heck, as an Obama supporter they pretty much do, too).
But from my perspective, it's 5 to 1 or worse. I hear oh so much more empty suit! Rezko! NAFTAgate! Race Card! nonsense, again and again, and I really don't hear Obama supporters shouting Whitewater! Vince Foster! Laura Bush is as qualified! 3AM ad is racist! Hillary/Bill are racists! nearly as much. The latter two got quick little bursts, and then died out, done in as much by Obamaphiles as Clinton supporters.
But I hear the mindless anti-Obama things over and over and over and over. And after while, it drives the best of us into fire-breathing dragons. That doesn't make any excuse for people who vent that anger in the form of cursing and invective, particular since it'll probably get vented at the wrong person. The poor poster that gets flamed when we go ballistic probably just believed something they heard; after all, when everyone around you says "he's an empty suit", it's easier to believe it than to spend the 5 minutes needed to find out it's utterly untrue. And once they get flamed, now they really don't want to spend the 5 minutes; now they're just pissed off at "those nasty, vicious Obama supporters". And the truth is, there are a few. But most of "those nasty, vicious Obama supporters" are just people who got pissed off by hearing nonsense one too many times and reacted inappropriately. And while I fully blame the offender, I do also blame anyone who repeats these things over and over, for fanning the flames and building the pressure.
Mind you, I'm giving Clinton supporters exactly the same benefit of the doubt. I understand why some of them go stark raving bonkers when someone claims the 3AM ad was racist. Or when someone drags Whitewater or Vince Foster into this. Or when someone claims Hillary Clinton has no experience (mind you, I reserve the right to discuss just how much, or the relative importance of it, but she does; if nothing else, she's been a sitting US senator for 6 years, and that's hardly chopped liver). Those things aren't true, any more than the tripe about Obama is true.
There's plenty of room for discussion. Question the depth and/or applicability of Obama's experience if you want; expect to have Hillary's questioned in return. Discuss policies and programs. Talk about who'll do a better job getting us out if Iraq; except to have Hillary's vote on the AUMF scrutinized in return. Talk about what we want and need in a President, whether it be fighter or consensus-builder or maybe both, and who better meets the goal. Brag on your candidate all you want (and expect it questioned if you puff things up), we'll brag on ours. Talk about your candidate's legislative record (and don't ignore that of ours, which is pretty darn substantial) and we'll talk about ours (and not ignore that of yours and compare it to Laura Bush's).
For me, and I hope other Obama supporters will join me, I'll try and always remember not to jump too hard down the throat of the 10th guy I see shouting empty suit! Rezko! Wright! unelectable! media favoritism! race card! and other nonsense; they most likely just haven't looked into things. I won't even jump down the throat of anyone shouting race card! who isn't addressing Ferraro first; maybe they missed the enormous flap about Ferraro.
And I hope Clinton supports will do the same for the poor Obama supporters who say the 3AM ad was racist, or who say no experience! racist! Some of them will be obnoxious, goodness knows; many of them will just move on. Try to remember also that they're probably just venting because someone else entirely just repeated nonsense about Obama for the 27th time.
On the other hand, if I see someone repeating nonsense like, once more for reference, "empty suit! Rezko! Wright! unelectable! media favoritism! race card!" about Obama over and over, when I know they know better and are trying to perpetuate any of those arguments, which deserve all the same credence as "same experience as Laura Bush has", because they hope someone will be ignorant enough to believe them without thought, then I reserve the right to jump down their throat (without threats and bullying). Because that's something they're personally doing that they should personally know is wrong. And I'll jump down the throat of anyone who ought to know better who leaps in to defend any of that tripe, for the same reason.
My choice of lines on the Obama side will, I think/suspect/hope/am egotistical enough to believe will be similar to those of a lot of other Obama supporters. As an Obama supporter I'm not sure I know where the consensus lines are for the Clinton side. But I do feel very strongly about my lines. Cross them by accident and I just owe you a polite response about why you're wrong and a pointer to the facts. Cross them again and again and you deserve a smackdown.
I understand that some people are going to think my lines are in the wrong place. Sorry. I've read,listened, and thought extensively on the issues that my lines concern, and I honestly don't think there's any room for debate on them, and I really don't much respect the analytical ability of anyone who does. If you've got cold, hard, facts that say otherwise, by all means bring them up; I'm convinced, but I'm not so set in stone I won't listen. But if you want to convince me otherwise, innuendo and assertion won't do; similarly to convincing you that Hillary did in Vince Foster (and she did not, this is just to make the point), about the only thing that'll sway my opinion is actual fingerprints on an actual weapon, or a flat-out confession.
Think about it this way: there are still lots of people out there who think Hillary Clinton did vile things to Vince Foster, and are convinced that there's room for debate on the issue. I'm as firm in saying y'all are right about them being wrong as I'm firm about the lines I have. I give people who harp on the things that are past my lines just as much respect as you'd give the Vince Foster conspiracy theorists and less than I give the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, which ain't much. Yeah, they can make an argument; yeah, if you torture the logic enough, use circular reasoning, and invent and misconstrue facts, you can argue that black is white and day is night; but really, black is black and white is white, day is day and night is night, sorry.
I hope and expect y'all will do the same for Obama supporters, on both sides. Be gentle with the newcomers who say something stupid about Hillary Clinton, and slam the repeat offenders. As much as you can, police your own side too (I've slammed a few Obama supporters on things like the 3AM ad, Laura Bush, the Clinton's supposed racism, and such). Suggest some lines of your own; maybe everyone can agree on a few (yes, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...).
Again being a dreamer: we're all trying to get a Democrat in the White House. Every one of us wants essentially the same things for the country. We differ on a few specifics and a few goals, and we differ on who we think the best choice for President is. Wouldn't it be nice if we could actually spend most of our time debating the goals and the specifics, and the positive qualities of our candidates, rather than spending all this energy trying to tear down two United States Senators, proud Democrats, running as progressives and each with millions of votes in their favor and a large corps of dedicated followers? And wouldn't it be nice if we could do that without the debate being hijacked over the same worn-out, tired, retread arguments?
I can dream. Dream with me. Please.
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