Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro Debacle

I had dinner tonight with friends, including several women of the right age to remember Congresswoman Geraldine Ferraro's historic 1984 run for Vice President as a very important part of their lives. For one, a very vocal supporter of Senator Clinton, Ferraro's run came at the same time as she was getting divorced; seeing a woman in that position made gave her extra strength and confidence. For two others, supporters of Senator Obama, this was their first chance to vote in an election, and they felt wonderfully empowered to be able to vote for a woman. Everyone at the table had fond memories of Ferraro's candidacy (if not the outcome of it).

Their feelings about the current situation were, uniformly, shock, dismay, and worry.

Betrayal is perhaps the best word to describe it, overall. A woman they respected, even admired, was suddenly engaged in race-baiting, not once but repeatedly and apologetically. Our friend who supports Senator Clinton was, understandably, the most hurt by it all: not only was one of her female political touchstones turning to ruin in front of her eyes, but it was directed to the cause of her second touchstone, her great hope for a female President in her lifetime. The notion that any woman would seek to help another reach high office by bashing any other minority group horrified her.

----------------

The events of the last few days are a tragedy. A person, fondly remembered by many Democratics for their (admittedly Quixotic) run for the Vice Presidency, is trashing their image, likely forever. Another person, still with some possibility of reaching the Presidency, is risking their image by appearing complicit with remarks of disparagement, of race-baiting, of division. The gender-shift here is intentional; this has nothing to do with either being women (though it has everything to do with why the women at the table were more personally upset by this debacle).

I'm not entirely sure what it does have to do with, why either of them would chose the path they've chosen, and I'm not going to hypothesize here. I'm not writing this to psychoanalyze the principals in this tragedy. I'm writing this to talk about how much of a disaster I think this is rapidly becoming.

The Personal -- The Tragedy

Geraldine Ferraro's reputation is growing more tarnished by the day, almost by the hour. Not only are her remarks, on their face, race-baiting of a low order, but she's absolutely unapologetic of them. Furthermore, she's chosen to accept interviews on right-wing talk radio as a way to continue her downward spiral. I'm assuming she must believe that her remarks are just that important that any forum is acceptable, even one where her remarks are going to be used to Senator McCain's benefit in the general election and even at the risk of doing grave damage to the Democratic party.

Everyone that I talked to tonight, and most everyone I've heard from, finds Ferraro's remarks to be far worse than those of Samantha Power, especially in their endless and unapologetic repetition. It's not just the remarks that are offensive, it's the obvious political calculation behind them; if she merely wanted to make a point, she's made long since made it. Geraldine Ferraro may be many things, but she is not a political neophyte. She's not saying what she's saying because she's a rabid racist. She's a very vocal supporter of Senator Clinton, and she's saying them because she sees an advantage in them for Senator Clinton.

Most thinking people will give her remarks a listen, reject them, and go on about their business. But there's a certain sort of voter, a sort of voter who hates the idea of affirmative action, who thinks any black or minority in a position of power, in a good school, in a good job, having success, owes that to putting a deserving white man down. Those are the voters these remarks target. No surprise that there are many such voters in the previous primary state, the next one, and two more significant upcoming primaries.

Senator Clinton's reputation is at risk here too. Her campaign came out swinging over a single personally disparaging remark, made by a non-politician, with no clear political gain from it in sight, quickly apologized for and with the clear intent of not being a public statement in the first place. How then can she react with a less strongly-worded denunciation of a series of repeated disparaging remarks, race-baiting remarks, with clear political gain for her being offered, made by a fairly prominent figure? How, if Senator Obama was insufficiently vehement by merely denouncing Louis Farrakhan's dubiously-valuable support, but it needed to be rejected as well, can she fail to reject any support coming from such remarks, or a person who would make them?

Yet Senator Clinton didn't make Geraldine Ferraro say these things, and they've put her in a bad position. She either has to be a hypocrite and hold herself and her campaign to a much lower standard than that which she's held her opponent to, or she, the first competitive female candidate for President of the United States, has to publicly denounce and reject the support of the first candidate for Vice President of the United States. That's a terrible position to be put in, and it's not her fault that she's in this position. To me, the choice is clear; if she chooses the path of hypocrisy, the tarnish from Geraldine Ferraro rubs right off on her. Geraldine Ferraro is already fundamentally tarnished; Senator Clinton can still avoid it. If she's worried about losing some support from other women over rejecting Ferraro, I think she can give that up worry; I think, if anything, she'll win their hearts a bit more by being strong and doing what needs to be done, by showing that she has a moral compass.

The Political -- The Danger

This isn't just about the ruination of one person's political reputation and career, and the risk to another's. Those are a tragedy; a tragedy which can be partially alleviated, but it'll still be tragic. There's worse here.

This is also dangerous.

Ferraro's remarks call for a clear rejection from each and every Democratic voice who hears them. Not just Obama supporters. Not just Clinton supporters. Not just those who are neutral in the whole matter. Everyone.

Why, you ask? Why should I need to speak against them? Maybe, as an intelligent thinking person, you think: "I know I'd never see Senator Obama as the affirmative-action candidate. Besides, I like affirmative action. I'm not racist, not bigoted, and I'm immune to race-baiting dogwhistles. To me, what she said is perhaps poorly worded, maybe a bit inflammatory, but maybe a bit true too. So why should I come out swinging."

The reason why is that it's going to bite you, me, the Democratic party, and the country in the you-know-what. The reason is that if a major candidate for the Presidency and her supporters let this go... if those who are neutral between the two let this go... if this is considered to be just a regrettable worded remark, then we've established the tone of discourse in our primaries, in our general elections.

If it's ok to attack Senator Obama, who is, regardless of your opinion as to the relative merits of him versus Senator Clinton to be President, clearly a very intelligent, very well educated, very accomplished politician, who has more national-state experience than a number of accomplished Presidents, who brings with him a large grassroots movement, who's well-spoken and articulate and all those wonderful qualities -- if it's ok to attack him this way, then it's ok to attack any black politician this way. To paint anyone who is a minority as an affirmative-action candidate. To pander to the real racists, those who'll hear the dog whistle and bark.

And if it's ok for black people, it's ok for women. If it's ok to say that Senator Obama is where he is because he's black, then it's unquestionably ok to say that Senator Clinton is where she is because she married Bill Clinton, and that if she hadn't, she'd be just another attorney in Arkansas or Massachusetts or wherever she'd landed. It's ok to say that Speaker Pelosi would maybe be a lawyer in SF if she were Ned Pelosi. And so on, and so forth.

And when it's said by a minion of Senator McCain in the GE, should it get to that point, and Senator Clinton responds that that's a bunch of sexist claptrap and an apology is in order, all they'll have to do is point at this incident, and say, if it was ok for your supporters to say about your rival, it's fine for us to say about you. Oh, they'll say it anyway, but now they'll be doing it from unassailable moral ground, too.

If this is ok, if this is what's allowed to be said about a successful Democratic Senator, who over half the Democratic primary voters to this point feel would make a perfectly fine President of the United States, if it's allowed to be said "he wouldn't be where he is, except that he's black" then it's ok to say it about anyone. And, sure, perhaps the well-educated, the bloggers, the in-crowd, the elites, they'll shrug that off and say "eh, it's a factor, but so what. They're still great and I'm still going to vote for them."

But the bigots out there won't. The bigots out there will eat it up. It's not meant for you, the bloggers, the netroots, the grassroots, the people who obsess about resumes and detailed policy platforms. It's aimed at the people who vaguely feel that their lives might be better if they got rid of that affirmative action stuff, if blacks/women/Asians/whoever just stayed in the ghetto/in the kitchen/in China/wherever and let more white people/men/whatever into colleges/jobs/political offices.

In a close election, between two fairly qualified candidates, that means the bigots decide who gets to be the Senator, the Congressperson, the Governor, the President. That means the standard really will be that the black candidate, the woman, the Asian, needs to be twice as good, three times as good, more, just to get past the bigots, because their opponent is out there dog-whistling to the bigots that "they're only where they are because they're <X>." And it's ok for them to do that, because after all, an icon of the Democratic party did it, and a very prominent, very well respected, very influential Democratic politician went along with it -- and not only that, but they're both "minorities". If they think it's ok, who's to differ?

This is already a tragedy. That can't be helped. This is starting to get really ugly. That can be, in large part, fixed. This could turn into a disaster. That needs to be fixed.

Please, if you respond to this, do not start with he-said she-said he-did-it-first she-did-it-first comments. Any of those positions are debatable, and I love debating them as much as the next person on the blogs, but they miss the point entirely. Even if you, in your heart of hearts, believe that this is just tit-for-tat politics, that it's just what-goes-around-comes-around, stop and think. And if you think it's making a mountain out of a molehill, really stop and think. What possible extra political damage could be done by stopping this now, by denouncing it in the strongest possible terms, by rejecting any political gain that comes from it? What -- it matters that much to you that a few low-information bigots might be disappointed that their dog-whistle stopped playing? That you might lose a few votes from people whose support is purchased at the cost of undermining Democratic principles, like fairness and equal opportunity?

You may feel that it's been done before. I may disagree. But nothing that has been done up to now in this campaign, in the wildest stretches of imagination, amounts to saying that someone is where they are only because of affirmative action. Nothing that's been said on either side tosses the keys to the bigots and shouts "bring it on!". On both sides, there are scattered instances of one person or another's character being impugned to a greater or lesser degree. None of them have been dismissive of anyone's entire career or campaign. None of them have much of an implication towards other future campaigns.

Suppose I grant you, those who feel this is one-sided the other way -- suppose I grant you that everything you've ever felt about Senator Obama's role in playing the race card is correct (mind you, I don't, I think much of it is nonsense, but for the purposes of argument, we'll grant it here). Suppose he's an absolute racist scalliwag who'll do whatever it takes to win, and millions of thinking voters have been, to quote the Senator, bamboozled. Is the proper response to that to add a bunch of grease and oil, get down in the mud, and roll around in it contentedly? Or is the proper response to stand off to the side of the mudpit and point out the dirt on your opponent?

I guarantee you, supporters of Senator Clinton, pretty much the only thing she'll get from a firm, no-questions denunciation of this sort of campaigning is applause. Oh, there'll be the usual idiots, there always are. And there'll be people saying "what took you so long?". That's the fallout from coming down so hard on Samantha Power and waffling about someone doing something far, far more insidious.

But there's almost no political risk here in taking the high ground. Whatever small loses she faces in bigoted areas of various states will be made up for by shaking off the stench of negativity that's settled over the race. To those who think Senator Clinton is in no way a racist, this'll be a minor little flap they can chuckle over. For those who do, this offers a chance of reaching across the divide and creating some doubt. To those with little opinion, it looks magnanimous.

That it's such a small risk, that the people who'll take it the wrong way are exactly the sort of bigots I'm sure Senator Clinton would not be proud of as her supporters, makes lack of a forceful response inevitably lead to questions. Senator Obama has gone way out on a limb decrying racial politics in the campaign. A forceful response gives you a saw to cut off the limb if he does something you can point out as hypocrisy in the future; the only reason to fear it is if you're afraid that he has, in fact, done nothing of the sort. By decrying this in no uncertain terms, as Senator Obama decried the hate speech of Louis Farrakhan (and you can credit Senator Clinton for pushing that, if you wish, though I believe his original statement was stronger all along than her amendment called for), you in no way exculpate anything Senator Obama may have done; by refusing, you make it clear you accept anything to do with the politics of racial division, and let the cards fall where they may.

Senator Clinton has done nothing all that wrong up until now, on this issue, except waited a bit long... but waiting an extra day is something no one will remember in a week's time, except the rabid, and they're already set in stone anyway. Please do not consider this to be an anti-Clinton diary. I can't state it more clearly. Senator Clinton has, to this point, done nothing wrong except to wait longer than her standards demand that anyone else wait in responding to their own campaign's misdeeds, and that's entirely forgivable.  The longer it goes, the more damage is done, and the harder it is to stop this dog-whistle when it's blown at your favorite candidate next time, and maybe not within the party.

Is all of this -- that we condone this sort of character assassination, that we allow the politics of minority belittling, that we accept statements that a person's status as a member of a minority can be widely inferred to be the reason for their success -- really a message the Democratic party, any member of it, or anyone who cares at all about equality wants to send?



Display:


You lost me (none / 0)

at Ferrarro's statements being more insidious than calling someone a monster.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:15:40 AM EST

Re: You lost me (2.00 / 4)

Someone calling someone else a monster is juvenile name-calling. It affects two people in one campaign -- the name-caller and the name-callee. It demands an apology.

Race-baiting (or gender-baiting dog-whistles, or gay-baiting dog-whistles), if unchecked, destroy the entire debate.

Can you honestly tell me that there was 1/10 the outrage on either side over what Samantha Power said, versus what Geraldine Ferraro has continued to say? Can you honestly tell me that 1/1000 as many voters would be influenced by the word 'monster' as compared to an implication that a candidate is where they are simply because of affirmative action.

If so, you live in an entirely different world than I do, one in which the country lives in a state of harmony over matters of race and gender, that no candidate is looked down on because of their minority status, where affirmative action is always a positive term, where name-calling has horrifying, life-altering consequences but racism, sexism, and other isms of the like are trivialities.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:22:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your support of Clinton does her (none / 0)

campaign credit.


by SleepingWillow on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not when I know (none / 0)

The Obama campaign has been making the polarization issue a focal point of the electability issue.

"It's not her fault people call her a monster.  But it's there.

Vote for me.  I can unite the country."

We disagree.  I don't think it was just name calling.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not when I know (none / 0)

Don't make a quote out of something you just made up, otherwise you lose all kind of credibility.

And even if that was what the Obama campaign was trying to push, I doesn't even come close to using race-/gender-baiting as seen in the Ferraro situation.


by marcotom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:54:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lost me (2.00 / 1)

It's a lot more insidious. "Insidious" does not mean "really bad" it mean something subtly but pervasively damaging, eg, a disease of insidious onset.

Race-baiting is far more insidious than a simple insult directed at an opposing candidate in the heat of a primary. It threatens to create wounds that may take many years to heal, the consequences of which extend far beyond these candidates, this election, or even this party. No, it is more insidious, and it is also more irresponsible and more destructive.


by EMTP democrat on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well I don't mean to be Insidious then (none / 0)

She should have just called him a monster, then.

She'll learn better next time.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:43:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well I don't mean to be Insidious then (none / 0)

If you don't think extreme personal namecalling hasnt been rampant in campaigns over the years, then you are clueless. Monster is nothing compared to some of the other words used. Power was just stupid enough to think off the record could be used after the fact.


by Pravin on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:52:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well Good then (none / 0)

Note to Clinton Campaign.

1.  Off the record.

2.   Call Obama a Monster.

You're golden!


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well Good then (none / 0)

I have no problem if the Clintons did this in private conversations. It is no big deal. You act like I will be bothered by it.


by Pravin on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No no (none / 0)

Just make sure you say "that was off the record" right after you say it, you'll be fine.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:03:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No no (none / 0)

You are acting completely stupid here. I couldn't care less if any of Sen. Clintons advisor called Obama a monster who would stoop to anything. Particularly not, if that person had to resign afterwards. That would only help Obama since he could play the enraged victim role a bit, like Clinton did when the Powers stuff happened.

This is a completely different story.


by marcotom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:58:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well Good then (none / 0)

Heck, do it on the record. Big deal. Someone in the Clinton campaign said Obama's a monster. Wow!

It's name-calling, it's ridiculous, it deserves an apology.

It's not destructive to the entire campaign debate, it doesn't target racist votes specifically as racist votes, it doesn't undercut affirmative action, it doesn't open up every other minority candidate to having their qualifications dismissed by "s/he wouldn't be here if s/he weren't <X>".

Go for it.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well I don't mean to be Insidious then (none / 0)

Yes that would not have been a big deal. She could have been cut loose form the campaign immediately like Power and that would have been it.


by hankg on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 06:17:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lost me (none / 0)

Also posted at "Maybe Geraldine Ferraro was right":

Everyone is buying into this complete mischaracterization of what Geraldine Ferraro said. Her words were taken completely out of context and distorted beyond belief for the express purpose of scoring some of the ugliest political points I have ever witnessed.

Geraldine Ferraro has been a fighter for everyone's civil rights throughout her long career of public service. From her long historical perspective she was making a profoundly positive point about Barack Obama's candidacy, saying it is historic, and has only been possible because of the culmination of the work, dreams, and sacrifice of the civil rights movement, the maturation of our society, and most importantly, a never before seen consolidation of support and mobilization of the black community. Her point was that is would not have been possible before, and is only possible now because of those history making efforts for social change, that make a presidential candidacy by a black man viable in a way that has never occurred before. She wasn't speaking at all to his qualifications, whether he "deserves" to be elected or not, her statements referred only to the fact of the new "readiness" of our society to consider and support a black candidate for the highest office in the land.

Her perspective is that the social movement toward the Obama candidacy is the important factor in making what would have been unfeasible not long ago a political reality. She was lauding the black community for the strong upsurge in activism and organization, which has never before been seen to happen on this scale. She was giving credit where it is due. It was a huge compliment from a civil rights and feminist icon, and she was stabbed in the back for it, for political purposes.

She is saying in essense that no matter how remarkable Obama is, or what his qualifications are, that nothing could have come of his campaign had these trends not been coming to fruition - the timing was right. Barack Obama stands on the shoulders of all those who have come before, fighting to end the racism and injustice. Ferraro was giving credit to those greater social forces at work, not attributing his rise to "affirmative action" or any other crap like that. That kind of racist BS had nothing to do with what she was discussing. Why anyone would want to distort and mischaracterize her remarks by taking them out of context and attributing racist connotations to them is unnervingly corrupt and politically ruthless.

Geraldine Ferraro refuses to apologize for giving her highest compliments to the civil rights movement and the black community for transforming our society into one where a black man can run for president with a hope of actually being elected. There is no reason why she should.

She is also outraged that her comments would be so ruthlessly misused against her, and to be labeled a racist after all her years of work for social change. That is the race baiting going on here, and she is absolutely right to speak out against it.

I do think she is right, and additionally I do believe that if Obama were a woman of any color he would not be in the same position with his very short, limited experience as a public servant. That is MY opinion of where our society is now, not what Geraldine Ferraro was saying, to be clear.

Young people may want to take credit for Obama's success and believe it is his uniqueness and gifts that make his candidacy possible, but we who have been around much longer know that Zeus did not jump fully formed from the forehead of Athena, his candidacy is a product of many people, included among them, Geraldine Ferraro. There have been countless profoundly gifted and brilliant black people who have come and gone and never come near to running for the presidency, no matter their unique talents. When you stand on people's shoulders, many of whom are long gone, having paid the supreme price for their activism, it would behoove you not to defecate in their faces.

I just want to set the record straight.


by 07rescue on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:17:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lost me (none / 0)

Then why did Clinton herself say she disagreed with Ferarro's statements? Why didn't she give the same justification?


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 05:22:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lost me (none / 0)

Clinton did not hear the context of Ferraro's remarks, and was only responding to reporter's tiny sliver of those remarks.


by 07rescue on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 08:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You lost me (none / 0)

Oh good, we can do this in two threads.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/20 08-03-12-clintonpublishers_N.htm

Of Ferraro's comment, Hillary Clinton told her audience: "I certainly do repudiate it and I regret deeply that it was said. Obviously she doesn't speak for the campaign, she doesn't speak for any of my positions, and she has resigned from being a member of my very large finance committee."

Given that Clinton has had literally days to look up the "context" of Ferarro's multiple statements, do you really think that she would denounce them so harshly if they weren't legitimately offensive?


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 09:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I know it's asking a lot... (none / 0)

... but many people on both sides are angry about this, from entirely different perspectives. I know this is probably impossible, but I tried as best as I could to not say anything denigrating about either candidate, even though I have strong views on other issues, views that I know many people here don't share.

Please don't put down others' anger. This is a real issue. Treat it seriously. Don't name-call back and forth.

Thanks.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:17:49 AM EST

Let's give this a try (none / 0)

I've given this some thought and can condemn Ferrarro's remarks.  And can even write to the Clinton campaign to do something more than just say "I don't agree" and have her resign.

Which is what they've done at this point.

The perspective of Clinton supporters is that a concerted effort is being made to tarnish a legacy with an accusation of racism.   The media is of course playing along and Obama is embracing it as well.

This will not stand in our view.  Not in any manner of fashion.  Not even one breath, whisper or hint.  I, for one, while I just said what I said about Ferrarro's comments, know this, I will also leave the party over this if this is what it turns into.

If you're looking for some pathway to reconciliation, I admire your intent.

One of the things about Diplomacy is you do have to have even the slightest precondition to prove the other side is serious about reconciliation.

I'm offering a letter to the Clinton Campaign saying "I don't agree" and a resignation wasn't enough.   Just for the sake of argument, what are you offering?


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:36:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's give this a try (none / 0)

The concerted effort to tarnish Ferarro's legacy is being done by herself.  She's the one that is keeping this in the news and digging herself a deeper hole.  If she just said she misspoke, and apologized for the miscommunication, it would have been out of the news by now...  but, she keeps going on right wing talk shows "defending" her case.  Stop!  Your comments were indefensible.  We know your intent wasn't intended to be malicious to an entire group of people, but they were... so be responsible and make ammends.  She's supposed to be a politician, for goodness sake!  Act like one!


by LordMike on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:00:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's give this a try (none / 0)

I'm not talking about Ferraro's legacy.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:01:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's give this a try (2.00 / 0)

You're talking about Hillary's?

A) "It was an abhorrent, repugnant thing to say about Senator Obama. I reject the implications of the statement, and I denounce Ms. Ferraro for making that statement."

B) "Well I don't agree with that..."

One of those statements protects her legacy.

The other is what she actually said.


by nathanp on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:40:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's give this a try (none / 0)

It's already been given; Samantha Power's apology, the denunciation of her remarks, and her resignation and cessation of making them.

The Obama campaign has already lived up to the Clinton campaign's rules and standards. I'm asking them to do the same thing.

Let me be clear about something: I'm not asking this because I think Hillary Clinton has done anything wrong. I'm not asking her to apologize for anything, whatsoever.

And I'm not asking it because it helps Obama. Honestly. I don't think it helps Obama at all. I also don't think it hurts him, or I'd be a nut to propose it, but I don't think it gives Obama much of anything.

I'm asking it because it helps every single Democratic candidate who doesn't happen to be a white male.

I'm asking it because, if it's ok for Ferraro to take every opportunity she has to get airtime for her view that Obama is where he is because he's black, and thereby paint him in the minds of bigots as the affirmative action candidate (and can you honestly argue that, in the mind of an anti-affirmative-action bigot, that's exactly how what she said will be heard), if it's ok for her to go on right-wing talk radio and make these statements, that what moral high ground will Hillary Clinton have when some future opponent tars her with the "just Bill's wife" brush, or the "got here because she's a woman" brush. Absolutely none. That'll be the standard of debate.

I want to be clear -- I do not believe that Geraldine Ferraro is herself racist, nor do I believe that her remarks are racist in and of themselves. I did, at first, but I was wrong. Racism is largely about ignorance, and it's largely about assuming that someone is lesser because they're of a different race. That's not what's happening here.

What's happening here is that, very consciously and very deliberately, repeated over and over again, Ferraro is playing the race-baiting dog whistle. She's implying the message that Obama is where he is due to the anathema of affirmative action. She's too smart to not know how what she's saying is going to be heard but low-information racist voters, and she's too smart to not know that right-wing talk radio isn't having her on because they suddenly think she's a great woman.

So what I'm offering is self-defense for the future. This is not about Obama vs. Clinton. Clinton doing towards Ferraro as she demanded Obama do towards Power and especially Farrakhan does not score any points for Obama. It hurts Clinton very little; perhaps her pride a tiny bit, and perhaps the votes of a few racists she can't really want to be her supporters anyway. It hurts Ferraro very little more than she's already hurt; Ferraro's been tarred by the media already in no uncertain terms.

It helps Clinton in a variety of ways, and the biggest is taking her gender and marriage back off the table, where they shuld be. It helps every Democratic candidate from here on out. It's her own standard for dealing with things like this. And it's the right thing to do.

That's what I'm offering.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I see (none / 0)

You're trying to help me.

I see.

How nice of you.

I wonder if that's how Brezhnev put it to Kennedy.

I'll be more specific.  The concerted effort to tarnish the Clinton legacy as racist.

What say you about it?

I've offered up something that meets your demands.

What say you about what concerns me?


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:16:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I see (none / 0)

I'm trying to help every Democrat who's not a white male for the next decade or so. The same exact sort of thing that Geraldine Ferraro is doing now can be done to Hillary Clinton. She's exactly as vulnerable to it as is Barack Obama. Their interests are the same, here.

I don't accept that there has been any effort to tarnish the Clinton legacy as racist. Sorry. I find it to be a bunch of assertion and hogwash. The only argument I've found in favor of that happening is an article which frankly makes the case by assertion.

But, since I don't think it's happened, and I think the only tarnishing of the Clinton legacy on civil rights was either there before Barack Obama's name was widely known or is happening right now due to Geraldine Ferraro, I'll happily offer a letter asking Barack Obama to make a public statement that, in his view, neither Bill nor Hillary Clinton are racists, and that everyone should respect their work in the area of civil rights.

That happens to be my view too; neither of them are racists, and their record should be respected for what it is.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's give this a try (none / 0)

I personally do not think Ferraro should resign.
She is a Finance person on that campaign, not anything more. I think we are getting to a ridiculous point asking everyone to resign. Of course, it was started by the Hillaryites with the Geffen incident.

However, Ferraro needs to learn to shut the fuck up. I have no problem with Hillaryites being tough on Obama, but for Ferraro giving bipartisan legitimacy to a racist view that Obama is only there because he is black on the even of a primary in a state which has racist pockets(I am from PA , originally and I know what Ed Rendell was talking about), just tells me how ridiculous the Hillary campaign has become. And it is funny how all the screeching Hillary harpies are shutting their ridiculous mouths now when one of their own has made a gaffe.


by Pravin on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

You can bury you head in the sand if you want.

Hillary Clinton would not cut off Ferraro's head and deliver it to you or KO.

I really don't know what more you expect her to do.

Needless to say I am looking forward to Pennsylvania , so are all of her supporters and she is as well , the rest of you can remain in the racial swamp if you want.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:19:23 AM EST

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 0)

Ferraro's head is already cut off; that's the point. The damage is done.

All I'd like her to do is what she asked of Barack Obama to do about Louis Farrakhan: reject and denounce the support of Geraldine Ferraro. Reject and denounce the language of racial division. Condemn the use of bigotry to win votes.

It would take her 5 minutes. It wouldn't harm anyone. It would make her look like a saint to her supporters, a bit more reasonable to her opponents, and classy to everyone in the middle. It would make her look responsible to Democratic party leaders. It would get a huge positive spin from the media. It would cost her even fewer bigot-votes than Obama might have lost in condemning Farrakhan.

On the other side, not doing it makes it perfectly legitimate for Senator McCain, or whoever her next opponent might be, to charge that she's only in the race at all because she married Bill Clinton. Or that she's a woman. Or that she's white. Or whatever they might wish to imply. They'll even have a nice comfortable moral perch to do it from.

Again, I ask you -- is that really what you want to accept in the Democratic party?


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ferrarro (none / 0)

Isn't Farrakhan.

This isn't working.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 1)

How about something stronger than a wink and a nod "I disagree with her statement"? For someone that took Obama to task on national television to both reject and denounce Farakhan's support of his campaign - a man that has absolutely no connection to the campaign whatsoever - to allow one of her official campaign surrogates to continually spew this trash with no regard for how detrimental it is to both the party and her candidacy is simply beyond the pale. Hold your candidate to the same level that she holds Obama.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 1)

A key Clinton backer has made and repeated vicious, ignorant race-baiting. But it is those that refuse to tolerate this behavior from a public figure who are imprisoning us in a "racial swamp."

Ah, it's that special Clinton logic where one wins by losing primaries, is more electable despite routinely losing by 15 points and more, and can be more "experienced" in politics than someone with half again as much time as an elected official. It's always a treat.


by EMTP democrat on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

Where was all this outrage when Obama supporters were pressuring  african american superdelegates to support Obama or their would be a challenge to them by other African Americans in the primary.

Where was keith Olberman when John Lewis a civil rights hero and Emmanuel Cleaver were being called Uncle Toms , where was all the outrage when Cleaver was being pressured by Jesse Jackson Jr threatening him he was going to be challenged and he was standing in the way of an African American to be president.

No one on MSNBC raised an eyebrow.

What if Clinton supporters started pressuring the white legislators to support her candidacy because she is white.

If this was not despicable enough to raise an eye brow by keith Olberman and his cohorts on MSNbC , then forgive me if I basically don't give a rip what he says in his special comment.

Its almost like Obama has the right to use race to achieve his agenda without anyone batting an eyelid.

This is the most despicable part of his campaign.

If you shout wolf every single time , no one would listen to you sooner than later.

I have had enough.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:43:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

I won't be bamboozled , hoodwinked , run amok , led astray .

By the way , those are dog whistles in the south if you don't know.

I challenge him to use those words in pennslyvania or ohio .

As soon as he started using those words in Mississipi and it started running over local tv and national tv , the vote was surely going to break along racial lines.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:51:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 2)

Oh for pete's sake, I'm white as the driven snow and I've heard all those words growing up in my own household. And Obama has used those words in speeches in states with a far, far higher population of whites, both statewide and in attendance.

This desperation to turn Obama into some manchurian candidate for the black community in frantic desperation to somehow justify Ferarro's comments is despicable.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

Lets even live those words aside .

If you hear it in your household , I don't know how that takes away from what I said .

I am sure you have heard the N word , it still doesn't take away from the meaning of the word.

Those are loaded words in these parts , the racial history we have all around this region still plays a part in our communities.

I would be interested in hearing what your opinion is of the other points i raised regarding pressuring AA leaders and calling them Uncle Toms and threatening them about running other black candidates in the primary.

If that is not using race to divide folks I don't know what is.

Did you here anything about that in KO special comment.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

Bamboozled - said to be of Gypsy origin, meaning to deceive by trickery; to cajole by confusing the senses; to hoax; to mystify; to humbug. [Colloq.]

I see nothing about that word being as culturally loaded and insultive as the "n" word.

Hoodwink - to deceive by false appearance

I see nothing about that word being as culturally loaded and insultive as the "n" word.

Run amok and led astray - if you honestly think these phrases are some kind of dog whistle to the black community, you live in a state of denial that is truly enviable.

Finally, you completely neglect to mention who was contacting the superdelegates and making those kinds of statements - it wasn't the Obama camp, it wasn't Obama himself or his surrogates or anyone on his staff. Those were everyday ordinary people, and while it doesn't make their behavior correct, you cannot conceivably hold Obama personally accountable for the actions of every single person in America, just as it would be ludicrous to lay blame on Clinton's feet for any white racists calling white superdelegates and saying that they're a race traitor for backing Obama.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Despicable is the word. (none / 0)

Her negatives have got to be over 50% by now.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

You're missing his point entirely.


by shalca on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

How about a more decisive response. Not necessarily asking her to resign which I think is overboard, but a definitve statement that such opinions only serve to give racists cover for rejecting a black person as a leading candidate.


by Pravin on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:55:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is top-of-the-rec-list material (none / 0)


by SleepingWillow on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:22:33 AM EST

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 2)

Rec'ed wholeheartedly.

This is easily the best explanation of the reality of the situation, and debunking of much of the various spin on this site from commentators on this site about what she "really" meant. Or tortured, insultive accusations that because I do not support Ferarro's statements 100% and refuse to see any race-bating in her statements, that I'm not a true feminist, that I'm the enemy, that I'm trampling over the entire feminist movement. Its bull, plain and simple.

Thank you for this diary. You expressed the situation much more eloquently than many have been able to.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:26:36 AM EST

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

senator, stop lying to us. race has helped you. you received 91% of the AA vote in mississippi.

geraldine stated a fact that race has played a role in your success. don't deny the obvious.

senator speak truthfully and don't be ashamed that AA's are happy and thrilled for you. there is no shame in this.

there is shame to deny that race has no place in this election when it Has been a factor

geraldine spoke the truth, you senator are dishonest!


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

Yes it is a well known fact the being Black with a name that sounds like a combination of Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden is a big vote getter in American presidential politics. Yes white males are the new oppressed minority because women and Blacks are getting all the breaks. That's why the 2 Democratic front runners are an African American and a woman. Just Bleeding heart liberal's affirmative action robbing better qualified white men of a job.

If Obama with his talents had been white with a name like Bill Clinton he would already been the nominee. He would not have gotten 90% of the black vote but he would have gotten a majority along with sweeping white blue collar voters. He would have even been able to survive an extra marital affair during the primary like Bill did, something that Obama would certainly not be able to get away with.

A black candidate is dependent on getting the votes of the 87% of the population that is not Black. Playing the race card will always work against them for reasons of simple math. Of course the WSJ editorial page, Pat Buchanan and Bill O'Reilly are all jumping to Ferraro's defense. All defenders of woman's rights and fairness in politics.


by hankg on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 06:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

senator, stop lying to us. race has helped you. you received 91% of the AA vote in mississippi.

geraldine stated a fact that race has played a role in your success. don't deny the obvious.

senator speak truthfully and don't be ashamed that AA's are happy and thrilled for you. there is no shame in this.

there is shame to deny that race has no place in this election when it Has been a factor

geraldine spoke the truth, you, senator, are dishonest!


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:32:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 1)

This is exactly the kind of example of blatant spin I was talking about. If Ferarro's statements were so truthful and actually flattering of Obama, why did Clinton say that she disagreed with them? Why isn't she standing up for the "truth"?

The answer is, of course, that you're saying that Ferarro said something which she did not actually say. Additionally, you're entirely discounting the fact that this isn't the first black politician that she's made these remarks about. Finally, blacks as a  percentage of the electorate are such a minority that even with the vast majority of them voting of Obama doesn't mean that they are the sole reason for his success. Its a ridiculous argument to make, no matter what your personal spin is.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:38:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

why would 91% of the AA vote go for obama and not the darling of AA community not too long ago, clinton?

don't tell me it's solely because he's charming. that may be one reason. race is another. there is no way around the obvious.


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:42:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

clinton is no dummy. obama supporters need her to apologize because this race crap is soooooo taboo. geraldine is so brave!


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

Bravely torpedoing her candidate's campaign, anyway.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 0)

Is she as brave as Chris Matthews who risked his career to speak the truth about Clinton only haivng her seat because Bill was her husband? (Note: I don't agree with him, but its the same sentiment).


by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:52:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

chris could have also added that clinton has other qualifications as well, instead he tethered himself to that one qualification...not very bright.


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 0)

Ah... But Obama is where he is ONLY because he is Black... I see...


by marcotom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:14:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 1)

Oh, I dunno....possibly because Clinton has surrogates like Ferarro? No one likes to be treated as a de facto voting bloc to be courted when it comes time to pull the lever, and then thrown under the bus when you want to pull out the dirty political maneuvers.

Trying to argue that black voters don't vote for Clinton because they're racist against whites, or vote based on race above all other factors, is insultive to the black community and is a gross generalization to make for no other reason than to try desperately to spin some sort of comeback to the recent comments by Ferarro.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:47:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

ferraro admitted she got votes because she was a woman...honesty is refreshing. obama denies, denies, denies, race is a factor.

what is so shameful about such a simple fact? wouldn't it be refreshing for him to heal the racial tensions if he met geraldines remark with honesty? instead, he wants me to think that blacks are voting for him only because he is such a charmer...


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (2.00 / 2)

Ferraro didn't simply say that he gets votes because he is black.  She implied he wouldn't even be in this position if he weren't black.  She diminishes all of his accomplishments because of his color.  That's not honest, it's racist.


by shalca on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

and he would not be in his position if he were not black...this is a fact. if he were white he would be a nobody...if she were not a woman running as v.p. she would have been overlooked as well. it does not mean he does not have other things going for him...but race has been one of his lucky charms...


by californiarose on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:03:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

If he was white, he'd be pretty close to Bill Clinton in 1992 and probably even further ahead in pledged delegates.


by shalca on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:12:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill (none / 0)

Had been a gov. for quite some time before running for president.  Not a very good analogy.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill (none / 0)

Why not? He was state senator in a much bigger state than Arkansas!


by marcotom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:16:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

How do you know? Are you clairvoyant or what?

After his Iowa win, which wasn't really driven by the Black vote, if you remember: why didn't he coast to victory? Oh yes, Clinton had to rely on the female vote in NH to even stay in the race! Do you see what kind of territory we enter here? And I'm not saying that Clinton won NH only because of the female vote and the crying incident. But if I wanted to make that point, I could do it with the same, or even more, justification that you use.


by marcotom on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Keep digging. (2.00 / 0)

You'll soon find the bottom.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

Absolutely fantastic diary.  

Wish you would repost it during a higher traffic time.  Hope it gets MANY more eyeballs.

Ferraro making the news/talk show rounds during the last two days (including right-wing shows like O'Reilly, fer chrissakes!!) to spew her bile and vitriol has been making me nauseous and angry.  You do a great job of summing up all my thoughts and feelings, but in a much more positive, articulate, and unemotional way than I would be able to right now because of my downright disgust for her and her enablers.

Kudos.


by goodnbad on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:38:30 AM EST

Re: Tragic and Dangerous: The Geraldine Ferraro De (none / 0)

This started out in my head far more angry and emotional. Fortunately I didn't have a computer nearby.

It wasn't until thinking it through that I realized this has fairly little to do with Obama vs. Clinton; that's a sideshow. This has everything to do with what level of discourse we expect and allow from any campaign at any time.

Giving up the moral high ground to the dog-whistle-players, whatever tune their whistle is playing, is sacrificing honor, integrity, and risking campaigns across the party, all for a few votes from people you'd hardly ever wish to have voting for you in the first place.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm (none / 0)

Thanks for sharing.

This won't be considered enough either.

I've been too long involved with trying to reason with Obama supporters, to know how these statements would be spun in their world.

There is no pathway to reconciliation.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:40:58 AM EST

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 0)

The only thing to be said about it is past due, and its apparently too late - the damage has been done. Its been dominating the news cycle for days now and Ferarro has been fueling the fire that Clinton has steadfastly been ignoring. Not sure how you can spin that otherwise.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:43:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Follow this (none / 0)

What I just said is: you'd say what you just said.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Follow this (2.00 / 0)

What about my statement was anything other than the truth? Was I disparaging Clinton over it? The situation isn't good for Clinton right now because of Ferarro, and that's the truth.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The situation is over (none / 0)

Clinton has repudiated the comments and cut her loose.

You are dragging it out for Political gain.

One thing I noticed is most of the Clinton folks I see on other blogs pretty much said "Fine, we move on now," after Obama cut her loose and repudiated her comments.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The situation is over (2.00 / 0)

Clinton didn't cut her loose. That's part of the problem. Ferarro resigned on her own - along with a statement that people were being racist towards her because she's white. Imagine the Powers situation playing out that way and tell me you can't see the difference.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whew (none / 0)

No path to reconciliation.

I can see that now.

You will never let this go.

It will never be enough.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whew (none / 0)

So, because every one of your statements defending the situation has been false, you still feel you hold enough moral high ground to shake your head sadly at the people who "just won't let it go". It must take some amazing mental gymnastics to feel comfortable justifying that attitude.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No (none / 0)

All of your statements are false.

First and foremost, the "Reject and denounce" benchmark was etched into the dialog by Russert.

Not Cinton.

See.  You are speaking lies.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 0)

Pardon me? Did we not watch the same debate where Clinton interrupted Obama's response and said that rejecting wasn't enough - that he had to denounce as well? That's funny, because in every copy of the video and every transcript I read, that's exactly how it transpired. Why don't you share a copy of the version you saw?


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0)

I saw the debate.


"I have been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments," Obama told Tim Russert, NBC Washington Bureau chief.

"I did not solicit his support. ... I obviously can't censor him, but it is not support that I sought. And we're not doing anything, I assure you formally or informally, with Minister Farrakhan."

That wasn't good enough for Russert.



by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes (none / 0)

Here Edgar, I'll do your homework for you. This is after Obama initially responds to the moderator, and Clinton interrupts.

--------

WILLIAMS: Senator...

CLINTON: I just want to add something here, because I faced a similar situation when I ran for the Senate in 2000 in New York. And in New York, there are more than the two parties, Democratic and Republican. And one of the parties at that time, the Independence Patty, was under the control of people who were anti-Semitic, anti- Israel. And I made it very clear that I did not want their support. I rejected it. I said that it would not be anything I would be comfortable with. And it looked as though I might pay a price for that. But I would not be associated with people who said such inflammatory and untrue charges against either Israel or Jewish people in our country.

And, you know, I was willing to take that stand, and, you know, fortunately the people of New York supported me and I won. But at the time, I thought it was more important to stand on principle and to reject the kind of conditions that went with support like that.

RUSSERT: Are you suggesting Senator Obama is not standing on principle?

CLINTON: No. I'm just saying that you asked specifically if he would reject it. And there's a difference between denouncing and rejecting. And I think when it comes to this sort of, you know, inflammatory -- I have no doubt that everything that Barack just said is absolutely sincere. But I just think, we've got to be even stronger. We cannot let anyone in any way say these things because of the implications that they have, which can be so far reaching.

OBAMA: Tim, I have to say I don't see a difference between denouncing and rejecting. There's no formal offer of help from Minister Farrakhan that would involve me rejecting it. But if the word "reject" Senator Clinton feels is stronger than the word "denounce," then I'm happy to concede the point, and I would reject and denounce.

---------
Here's the link to the entire transcript: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/27/a merica/26textdebate.php?page=17

Russert only mentioned denouncing Farrakhan's support.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

You asked.

It started with Russert.

If Russert didn't ask that, Clinton would not have asked for a clarification of Obama's answer to RUSSERT'S QUESTION.

It was not CLINTON'S QUESTION.

You understand that, right?


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly (none / 0)

Do you understand that Clinton's jumping into Obama's response specifically to interject that its not enough to reject, but to denounce as well, was not only splitting hairs, but established a new and higher benchmark for responding to these situations that no one else has made prior besides herself?


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:40:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand (none / 0)

That is was Russert's original question.

I believe this:


"I have been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments," Obama told Tim Russert, NBC Washington Bureau chief.

"I did not solicit his support. ... I obviously can't censor him, but it is not support that I sought. And we're not doing anything, I assure you formally or informally, with Minister Farrakhan."

That wasn't good enough for Russert.

Is an accurate description of the episode.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (2.00 / 0)

Only if you completely disregard everything that happened after your quoted clip.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:51:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A question (none / 0)

Do you expect Clinton to be able to censor Ferrarro?


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:26:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A question (none / 0)

No, but I do expect her to live up to the standards that she herself set for her opponent throughout this campaign.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:33:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Throughout (none / 0)

You mean back when Obama's surrogates were calling the Clintons liars and Obama was saying, It's not his job to comment on what other people say.

Maybe you're right.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:35:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Throughout (none / 0)

Is it pointless to ask if you have any sort of link to back up that statement?


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't know that history (none / 0)

Geffen (who had the same position, finance chair, on the Obama campaign that Ferraro had) called the Clintons liars, Wolfson asked Obama to repudiate the comments, Obama declined to do so.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't know that history (none / 0)

No, he didn't. He didn't have any official capacity within the campaign. His finance chair is Penny Pritzker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-hu ffington/team-hillary-shoots-back-_b_417 63.html


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:44:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He was a fundraiser (none / 0)

Heading up a large network of donors.

That's what a finance chair does.

He no longer acts in that capacity.  But his role was the same.  And he never resigned, and Obama never even bothered to disagree, not even sligtly, with Geffen.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:46:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was a fundraiser (2.00 / 0)

Let's take this slow, Edgar.

He couldn't resign, or be removed, from the campaign because he was never an official part of the campaign to begin with. You do understand that, right?

Saying that a large private fundraiser is exactly the same as a official campaign finance chair is absolutely, positively false. Its absurd you could possibly think that. To put it another way, you're flat out lying, Edgar.


by upstate girl on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:49:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm lying? (none / 0)

You mean Obama did actually say he disagreed with Geffen's comments?

Wow.  I totally missed that.


by Edgar08 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm lying? (none / 0)

Wow, do you mean you admit you were wrong and Geffen was a private fundraiser, not a member of Obama's campaign staff, and therefore is not only not representative of Obama's campaign in any capacity and therefore speaking as a private citizen (unlike Ferarro)...but also couldn't be officially removed from any capacity in the organization (unlike Ferarro)?

Really, Edgar, is it that hard to say you were wrong, even after you started this whole conversation by calling me a liar? Is it really easier to just ignore the fact that you've been fundamentally wrong with not only the facts, if not the meaning, behind each of your justifications?

In that case, let's look at what Geffen actually said (since I'm getting the feeling you've never bothered to personally read up on it yourself).

Here's the actual interview with Geffen where he originally made the statements in question: http://select.nytimes.com/2007/02/21/opi nion/21dowd.html?_r=1&hp&oref=sl ogin

What does he say? ""Not since the Vietnam War has there been this level of disappointment in the behavior of America throughout the world, and I don't think that another incredibly polarizing figure, no matter how smart she is and no matter how ambitious she is -- and God knows, is there anybody more ambitious than Hillary Clinton? -- can bring the country together." He calls her ambitious and polarizing.

""It's not a very big thing to say, `I made a mistake' on the war, and typical of Hillary Clinton that she can't," Mr. Geffen says. "She's so advised by so many smart advisers who are covering every base. I think that America was better served when the candidates were chosen in smoke-filled rooms." She can't admit when she's made a mistake. (boy, that sounds familiar.)

Here's the kicker, Edgar - the misrepresentation of Gef